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Apple held its annual WWDC event this week, where it announced a whole bunch of new software features for its mobile and desktop platforms. It was also yet another opportunity for Apple to insist that all you need to do to simplify your life is buy more Apple products.
This week on Gadget Lab, WIRED senior associate reviews editor Adrienne So and WIRED reviews editor Julian Chokkattu join us to talk about WWDC and the pros and cons of assimilating into Apple's ecosystem.
Read Lauren’s story about Apple’s walled garden of products. Read Julian’s story about the biggest features coming to your iPhone this fall. Check out everything Apple announced at WWDC here.
Adrienne recommends Anve Swimwear for this post-pandemic hot mess summer. Julian recommends the Secretlab Magnus Desk. Lauren recommends Tom Simonite’s WIRED profile of ousted Google researcher Timnit Gebru. Mike recommends the browser extension Minimal Twitter built by Thomas Wang.
Adrienne So can be found on Twitter @adriennemso. Julian Chokkattu is @JulianChokkattu. Lauren Goode is @LaurenGoode. Michael Calore is @snackfight. Bling the main hotline at @GadgetLab. The show is produced by Boone Ashworth (@booneashworth). Our theme music is by Solar Keys.
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Michael Calore: Lauren.
Lauren Goode: Mike.
MC: Lauren, what happens when you're sitting at home and your phone rings?
LG: Well, I hear about seven different instances of this sound.
[Apple ringtone plays.]
MC: Well, welcome to Apple World.
LG: Indeed.
[Gadget Lab intro theme music plays]
MC: Hi everyone. Welcome to Gadget Lab. I am Michael Calore, a senior editor at WIRED.
LG: And I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a senior writer at WIRED.
MC: We're also joined this week by WIRED senior associate reviews editor, Adrienne So. Welcome back to the show, Adrienne.
Adrienne So: Hi guys.
MC: And reviews editor, Julian Chokkattu. Julian, welcome back.
Julian Chokkattu: Thank you for having me.
MC: You both have fancy new titles. Congratulations on those. We've asked the two of you on the show this week because it is Apple Week. Apple just held its annual worldwide developers conference. We call it WWDC or if you want to be like Lauren and be extra cool, you can just say Dub Dub.
LG: No one has ever described me as extra cool. FYI.
MC: I just did. I just did. I just did. That counts. Per usual, during the keynote address on Monday, the company announced a bunch of new software updates for all of its key products. This is the mid-year announcement that promises to make your iPhone feel fresh or your iPad to feel more like a computer all without having to buy new hardware. Though, of course, Apple still wants you to buy new hardware in the fall when it comes out. A lot of these software updates are designed to make your computing life easier if you're living in the Apple universe. But that also means it's designed to get you pretty locked into Apple's universe. We'll talk about Apple's quest for gadget domination later in the show, but first we have to cover the news. Julian, I'm going to start with you because you wrote a story about all the biggest software features coming to the iPhone later this year. What jumped out at you from Dub Dub?
JC: I think the biggest one is updates to FaceTime, Apple's video calling app. They're making it a little more like platforms like Google Meet and Zoom in that where you can create links to share with other people to join, and that even applies to people on Android phones and even windows' web browsers. So basically it's a little more platform agnostic. Anyone can join calls and there's also features like the ability to isolate your noise. So if you're in an ambient surrounding like a coffee shop, people won't hear all of that sounds around you. They'll just hear your voice. And of course, other things like portrait mode in FaceTime, where it'll blur out your surroundings. So we can't see your messy bedroom. And of course the other big thing was the ability to share movies and music, or even your own screen with other people when you're in a FaceTime call.
So for example, if you want to watch a new movie that came out, Zack Snyder's Army of the Dead, you want to watch that with a friend, you can totally do that by just sharing and syncing in real time this movie watching experience with anyone you're on a FaceTime call with, and that also applies to music. So if you want to listen to the new Olivia Rodrigo album that just came out, you can totally do that again in sync with Apple Music. And what's actually nice is that there's this SharePlay API. So you're not necessarily just restricted to using something like Apple TV or Apple Music. If you don't have those services, developers will be able to implement the functionality with their own apps. So some of the existing platforms that will be available are Disney+, Hulu, ESPN+, for example. So it's a big update that integrates this experience of video chatting with your friends and watching content or listening to content with them, but of course this is not particularly new. You can do this stuff existing platforms like Watch Party, for example, and Netflix has its own type of system as well.
MC: So it's really interesting that all this stuff is coming into FaceTime because over the last year, of course everybody's been spending a lot of time in Zoom, a lot of time in Teams, a lot of time in Meet, and I'm sure a lot of time in FaceTime. So FaceTime is expanding out to become more like those other products that everybody has become so reliant on.
JC: Yeah. And I think this also speaks to the limitation of the way Apple handles updates. Everyone else can just issue an update immediately and they'll get those features. Some of these features that you see at WWDC are things that you would have expected Apple to roll out last year when we were all in a pandemic. And these are all beneficial features that again would have been really handy to have last year. So it's that cadence of updates where it's a cyclical, annual cycle rather than being able to just issue a software update to an app and you being able to download it immediately.
LG: Julian, what's your sense of how many of these features will work on FaceTime from the web, since people on an Android smartphone or a Windows PC can technically use FaceTime from the web with this future update? But are they going to get access to things like portrait mode or conversation boost or even SharePlay?
JC: I'm not entirely sure. I think that's still something that may need to be answered as we test the public beta and stuff, but I know things like you're already restricted to specific browsers. So if you're on Windows, you have to use Edge or Chrome. So if you're on Firefox, you're out of luck. So there's definitely going to be limitations and I think that's a pretty regular theme with almost any Apple service you use on a non-Apple device. It's always limited in some functionality.
MC: Before we move on to watch and iPad and all the other stuff, real quick, tell us what else in the iOS announcements jumped out at you.
JC: I do want to take a minute with Focus, which I swear to God, I had the idea for this four years ago. I should have patented it or something, but basically Focus is this new way of setting profiles in iOS, where you can customize your home screen to include specific people that you might want to talk to, apps that you use for different times of day and different profiles or mindsets that you're in. So there's a work profile, there's a sleep profile, there's a home and personal profile, and you can actually customize up to 10 of these. And the idea is if you set it to work profile, on your main home screen, you'll see work-related apps, you'll see contacts and widgets and everything related to work. You can allow notifications from work colleagues only specifically and not other people.
So you don't get disturbed and there's going to be a status API. So third party developers for different applications like Slack, you can actually integrate this so that Slack will be able to figure out when you set your iPhone to your home profile, for example, and they'll automatically alert the people that might be trying to message you saying, "This person's set to home profile." They can still get through to you, and that's, again, something that's similar to what already exists in Slack, but this is something that would be opened up to all the different types of messaging applications if you don't just use iMessage. So Telegram and other messaging apps as well.
MC: Very cool.
LG: I feel like this is the closest that Apple is going to get two away messages on messages. It's not quite leave an emo song lyric or leave something up that says like, "Hey guys, I went to the cafeteria for dinner. Meet me there in 20." Which is maybe how we used aim in college, but it's close. It's like someone messages you and they get an auto response that says you're in some kind of mode.
MC: Indeed. Speaking of notifications, Adrienne, you are an Apple Watch user and do you love your Apple Watch. So please tell us what you thought of some of the watch OS enhancements.
AS: Well, continuing with the theme that Julian was talking about with Focus and this year in particular, I was like, "You now what would be really useful for the Apple Watch? Is if it could tell me when I'm about to have a panic attack." But turns out that they can't quite do that yet, but it was a big focus with watch OS this year on a health and mindfulness stuff. We have a new mindfulness app, which includes a cool new breathe animation so that you will actually look at it, instead of just clicking, "Dismiss panic," and then they have a new reflections features.
Will address different prompts to you throughout the day to contemplate something, try to remind you of something that you love, something that will again, distract you from your panic. So we will see if these are actually going to be useful, or I'm just going to end up clicking dismiss on those as well. "No, I will not think of my children. This is just bad." And then the new workouts too are also very serenity now focused. They have a new Tai Chi metrics, which I know you are super stoked on, right?
MC: Yes. Even though I don't have an Apple Watch, but I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
AS: You can just Zoom me and I will just tell you what the Apple watch is saying while you do your Tai Chi. Yeah. And then the other thing is that it's going to be integrated with your HomeKit stuff. So you'll be able to control more things in your home environment and be able to use Photos more efficiently on your watch to communicate with other people. It'll have featured memories and then you can just text a voice. If something on your watch comes up, "Oh, this beautiful memory, I'm just going to send this to my bestie. I'll text her with my voice. I'll edit it in line and then for the appropriate interval, I'll just send her the correct GIF or whatever to respond comedically," as they say, which is a special thing I like to do, to respond comedically.
MC: I also like the new watch face with ... You can have a picture of your loved one on your watch face and the time and date sits behind their head. They use some sort of algorithm to figure out where the outline of the person's head is and then use that as to make a little 3D image.
AS: Do you know what the thing is? That Emily, one of our former editors, she sent me the iPod touch and then I wiped it, but for some reason, her iPhone photos still show up randomly sometime in my photos. So sometimes I get to be treated to a special memory of Emily's and I'm like, "Oh, this is so moving."
LG: This is Emily Dreyfus?
AS: Yeah.
LG: Does she know this? Does she know that you see her photos?
AS: I have her number. I should probably text her. I have no idea. I wiped it. I factory reset it, but for some reason, sometimes a photo of her, of her kid from three years ago will just pop up in my memories and like, "Featured." Feature that shit.
MC: OK. Well, we have to pause here for a break, and when we come back, we're going to talk more about WWDC.
[Break]
MC: Welcome back. Toward the end of the WWDC keynote, Apple showed off a feature called Universal Control. And I want to start here because I think it's really important. It allows people to set an iPad next to a Mac computer and use the iPad as a second screen. So you can move the cursor from the Mac screen to the iPad screen and back, and it flows from one to the other very fluidly and the keyboard and track pad that you're using work across the devices automatically. So it automatically senses which device you're trying to control and switches control from one to the other.
Now like other features that Apple introduced this week, it's a way of integrating multiple types of devices together and tie them together across the cloud. Of course, to make the most of these features, you will need to pony up for a bunch of Apple products and pay for all the services that connect them together. Now, Lauren, you wrote a story this week about how Apple's vision for total gadget and service domination is coming into stark focus. I'd like you to tell us about it.
LG: OK. How much time do you have?
MC: Seven hours.
LG: OK. So there are a couple of layers to this or a few layers, and it's really all about Apple controlling this full stack of our computing experiences, right? There's this hardware layer, the iPhone, the Apple Watch Apple TV. Microsoft refers to this as edge computing, the edge devices. I think that's a generally accepted industry term, and Apple in controlling the full stack is also a controlling more and more of the componentry, particularly Silicon that's in these devices. Then there are these software frameworks. Let's just say something like HomeKit that make non-Apple hardware devices compatible with Apple software in some way. It's a way of linking into a broader network or devices. And then there's this cloud layer that it increasingly is becoming a subscription layer, which is essentially Apple offering optimized experiences if, and the if is the big caveat, if you're subscribed to something and if you're using Apple devices.
So we saw examples of it this week and Julian gave a really great overview of SharePlay earlier, right? SharePlay is one example of that. SharePlay in essence is like you're sharing a screen with your friends, you're co-watching something like a WatchParty like some people started doing during the pandemic, right? Or you're collaborating on something together. These are not new ideas, but the way Apple is doing it is saying, "OK, you have to be using FaceTime, and if you're going to cast to a big screen, it has to be an Apple TV, something that's Apple TV enabled." So that's just one example of it's very specific to Apple software, the way Apple software works, and you have to have another device in your home that's going to work in the Apple universe.
Even something like Apple Watch controlling your smart home gadgets, right? It's got to be like you have the iPhone or you have the Apple Watch, which means you have to have an iPhone because you can't actually set up an Apple Watch without an iPhone. And then if it's controlling those smart home gadgets, it has to be something that's HomeKit compatible. And then if you're going to use Siri now, Siri can now come to third-party devices like the Ecobee Smart Thermostat, you actually have to have a HomePod mini for that to work. So it's just like this glut of Apple products at the hardware and software layer.
Here's another example, right? Apple announced that in photo memories now, which are ... You go into the Photos app on your iPhone. You go to the for you section. Apple has collated some photos for you and turned it into a "memory". You can now add music to that, but in order for you to do that, it pretty much has to be an Apple Music subscription. There are limited things you can do. So this is all just about Apple saying, "Yes, you can do all these really cool things and there's amazing interoperability between devices and services," but pretty much, you need to pony up for Apple stuff.
AS: Well, this is part of the vision that I've outlined to both you and Mike before, I think Lauren, because I am totally buying into this. And I think the watch is going to be key to everything eventually like the Apple chip in my watch, I'm going to unlock my car. I'm going to lock my car. I'm just going to move around because I've written ... The smart home experience as it exists right now is just so patchy and there's so many glitches. Every three years, I want to write an article that's just like, "Oh, the smart home still sucks." And then just move on.
But if everything is integrated with Apple, my vision of what will happen, you'll just have your Apple Watch on and you'll unlock your front door and you want to do anything. Your preferred lights for 5:00 PM are just going to come on and then my happy time, my happy hour music is just going to come on from my HomePod as I walk into my kitchen. The ambient temperature in my house will be set to the perfect 74 degrees at every time of every day. I mean, maybe this is how we get a smart home ecosystem that actually works, except that you're going to have to buy all Apple stuff.
MC: Yeah, maybe.
LG: At first, when you said eventually the Apple Watch chip, I thought you were going to say, "Eventually the Apple Watch chip will just be implanted in me, and I will be able to remotely control all of my home devices with it." But what you're describing is this optimal experience that Apple is promising, and honestly, it's why so many people like Apple products. I think that there are obvious upsides and downsides to this approach and one of the downsides is that it's really expensive to live in the Apple universe and that maybe in some way, it could limit what app developers can do in such a closed platform and limits competition. And of course, Apple is being scrutinized pretty closely for just its power and influence over our tech experiences. But the other side of it is it just works promise. Sometimes that is the case. Sometimes people just want that level of interoperability.
AS: So this is not the appropriate place to make a joke about how that's what I thought they were putting in my arm with that injection was the Apple chip. So we don't make a joke about that here. But when I was testing the HomePod mini, I'd be playing a podcast for my kids in the car on CarPlay, and then I'd walk inside the house and it would still be playing and I'd set my phone down next to the HomePod mini and it would just continue seamlessly playing right in the kitchen as I was getting lunch or whatever. It's just those little sparks for us Apple users. We just have to be willing to shell out the money for it.
MC: The it just works effect is very powerful. And I mean, that's what I saw with Universal Control. It was like, "OK, I know this is a tightly controlled demo, but if it works like that, that's pretty awesome."
JC: Yeah. But the other obvious, we've touched on a bit of this, especially with the smart home ecosystem. It's nice because you don't have a lot of other companies out there that can do the level of integration that Apple does. So it's nice to be able to have an option that is completely controlled by one system, but then you also look at them, you just don't get a lot of choice with everything. So when you're looking at, Adrienne was talking about the smart home, HomeKit only really works with so many third-party devices, and if you look at Alexa and Google Assistant, your options for adding smart stuff to your house is insanely large. There's so many choices, there's so many price points you can hit. There's so many different types of products.
Maybe that's going to happen now that Apple is allowing Siri to be built into other gadgets, but you also know that Apple is going to control very finely exactly who is allowed to put Siri in another device. So it's that trade off of like, "Well, they're much slower to come to market with something that you can potentially use in your home and when that does come, it's going to be significantly later and probably pricier than what's already out there."
MC: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly the heart of it. Part of the reason why the smart home has sucked for so long and continues to suck is that everything has to work together perfectly and that is just not proven to be the case. There are a lot of industry organizations where there are multiple companies working together to make protocols to make smart home stuff work together. And Apple announced that it was joining Matters, that what it's called?
LG: Mm-hmm.
MC: The new one that Amazon and Google have already signed up for? When you're buying stuff for a smart home, if you're installing smart home gadgets in your house, you do have a lot of choices and it always makes sense just to buy as much stuff made by the same company as possible. Right? So right now, that's Amazon basically. And Google and Nest gets you about halfway as far as Amazon does, but to have Apple HomeKit, all Apple devices, all the Apple services to tie together, music, iCloud, I think it's going to be really powerful for people who are already halfway there with all the stuff that they own and can spend the money to fill out the rest of their home.
LG: Mike, you started out this segment by talking about Universal Control, right? The interoperability between specifically Macs and iPads. So how do you see that fitting into this broader theme?
MC: I think it's going to be the thing where you are using your iPad in one room, and then you want to continue what you're doing, but you want a better computing experience. So you walk over to desk, you plop your iPad down next to your Mac, and then you slide the cursor over and start typing there. So you basically you have a computer that doesn't move and you have a computer that you carry around with you. We have that with a phone, but I think for the type of work that Apple is envisioning people using Universal Control for, it's probably more suited to typing or editing photos or things like that, where you're not doing it on a phone. You're doing it on a bigger screen, like an iPad. So I see somebody sitting in their bedroom or an easy chair using an iPad, and then they want to do a little bit more. So they walk over, they put it down next to their Mac and then they have their full tool set that they're used to.
LG: Is there some inevitability, do you think though, that as Apple pushes more and more into services across devices, that there's also just more inevitable frustration? I get that the interoperability has the benefits of when it works, it works well. There are security benefits that Apple can build into these products that maybe other companies can't, and people just ... There's a cache still attached to Apple products. But what happens when there is a latency between using that feature between your Mac or your iPad OS? Or you find out that an Apple subscription service you've been paying for, for several months that you didn't mean to re-up to, because it's just built into your iCloud, whatever. I don't know, just things start going wrong.
MC: Yeah. I mean, that's always going to happen. Right?
AS: I think the main problem ... I think one of the things with this is just like Spotify. Honestly, I would rather switch jobs, switch houses, move to a different country, than switch from Apple Music to Spotify because it's just so hard, but everybody uses Spotify and it's such a better service than Apple Music, but I can't because I'm in-meshed in the Apple system. So it comes down to what Julian and Mike was talking about choice. If I was the kind of person who would be happier with some limitations and some device other than maybe I'd be totally fine. I mean, I don't know if this is really what you're getting at Lauren.
LG: Yeah. I just feel like when I see family, they always say, "Oh, my Apple Watch has just suddenly stopped pairing with my phone. How do I fix it?" It's like it goes from time to time and we just reset it. I just say, "All right. It's backed up to the cloud. Let's just do a reset and we can reset and then repair it and it repairs." And I'm like, "Why is this happening?" But maybe that just speaks to the sheer volume and multitude of devices that we have in our lives now and services that we're using. I also spent a couple hours trying to troubleshoot a Netflix problem when I was visiting family. Maybe these things just happen now.
AS: I think people would be genuinely disturbed about how much of Gadget Labs technical support is, "Have you tried turning it on and off again? Off and then on. Try it again. Just do it again, mom. It's fine."
MC: Log out, log back in. Restart.
JC: The scarier thing that I wanted to mention is with everyone ... Obviously Apple promoting this interoperability is going to get people to buy and use more of its own services, but that also is going to create even bigger of a bubble that people live in. And you already see, we all know about the green bubble effect and iMessage, how people who use iPhones and they text Android users and they get the green bubble instead of the blue bubble, and sometimes they can treat those people differently than they would if they got a blue bubble.
AS: It makes me physically sick.
JC: Case in point: Adrienne. There's this worry that the more people are becoming more tightly entrenched to this Apple ecosystem, if you give people a negative experience with people that because maybe they can't afford to buy a Mac and they buy a Windows machine but if the experience there is annoying for that Apple user to interact with that other person, and then they might literally change the way they act toward that person. That is something that has happened and I think that is definitely some problem of how Apple decides to treat people that don't buy its own devices.
MC: That's a very good point.
AS: That's a really good point, yeah.
MC: Well, look, we have to wrap this up. So let's take another break, and when we come back, we'll do recommendations.
[Break]
MC: All right. Here's the last segment of our show, where we all give our recommendations for things that we want everybody to enjoy. Adrienne, you get to go first. What's your recommendation?
AS: So just in this past week, there've been this whole slew of articles about how this summer is just going to be a hot mess for everyone. Nobody even knows what they're going to be doing. So my recommendation is for everybody to just chill out and get themselves a two-piece bathing suit. Two people on at WIRED have bought this on Bay Swimwear, two-piece bathing suits. It's women-owned company recycled, and they fit really well. They stay on. I don't even know what you're going to be doing with your vaccinated summer, but my recommendation is a swimsuit that's actually going to stay on.
MC: Very nice. Should I also get a two-piece? Is that your advice to me?
AS: Yes. And then we'll all wear our matching two-pieces out to brunch, Mike. It's going to be awesome.
MC: Julian, what's your recommendation?
JC: So I hate wires, which is weird working at WIRED. But generally, when I'm organizing my desk, I have a system where I try to hide as many wires as I can and I used to just use this a hundred dollar desk that I bought off of Amazon and I used duct tape to hide all the wires behind the walls. Again, terrible idea, because that'll peel off your paint. So instead, I'm testing currently this desk from this company called Secretlab. They make gaming chairs and other home furniture equipment. This new desk though, is designed to hide and help you hide all of your wires. And there's different accessories that you can get, with magnets that you can just clip onto the underside of the desk, and all of that just makes it super easy to hide everything and make it look very wireless and very clutter-free.
I am all about that. I feel like every six months, I'm just changing how something looks on my desk. So this desk for me is something that's just like peace of mind. I didn't have to use duct tape. I didn't peel off any paint. Unfortunately though, it's a little pricey. It's I believe 399 for the large version, but there is going to be a slightly cheaper one for a smaller vision later down the road. But Secretlab MAGNUS Desk, and I'll be writing something up for that on WIRED.com soon enough.
MC: It's quite handsome. It has all these channels in it. It's cool for running all your cables, I assume, right?
JC: Yeah. Has different channels and you can still mount stuff. Overall, I have like a monitor mounted to it, and even that just looks much better on this desk rather than other desks where it forces you to create some space on the backside of the desk. So all around, it just makes it look much prettier, and also you can get a RGB light strip if that's your thing to light up your desk.
MC: Perfect. All right. Well, Adrienne is recommending something for the hot mess summer. Julian, you're recommending something for the work from home summer part too. Lauren, what's your recommendation?
LG: So I don't really have a recommendation for your hot girl summer, though I fully support the idea of it. I would say that you should go check out Tom Simonite's profile in WIRED of Timnit Gebru. Timnic Gebru was a Google AI researcher. She was working on ethical AI and she was an outspoken critic of some of Google's issues with its AI products. And she was ousted from Google late last year under really bizarre circumstances and since then, other people from the ethical AI group at Google have either been fired or have left in protest of what happened. And Tom's story is excellent. It really underscores, I think some of the internal problems at Google, but also some of the broader issues that we are facing as AI just proliferates and affects our experiences in technology, and Gebru is one of the most, I think, high profile black women in AI and AI research. And you should just absolutely go read this story. So that's my recommendation. It's a shameless plug of WIRED, but go read Tom Simonite's story out this week about Timnit Gebru in WIRED.
MC: Absolutely. Hard second recommendation over here.
LG: Mike, what's your recommendation this week?
MC: All right. I am going to recommend something that is going to make your life much better. If you are a Twitter user who uses the web version of Twitter, which is most people who use Twitter, I assume, so I just installed this on the desktop. It's a browser extension. It's called Minimal Twitter, and it's from the developer, Thomas Wang. It is a fantastic tool for cleaning up everything about Twitter's web interface. So if you install this browser extension, which by the way, it works on Chrome, Firefox and Safari, you get a very simplified user interface. You lose the topics section, you lose the who to follow stuff. You won't see promoted posts. There won't be a border on your main feed, unless you want it to be there. You can even get rid of some of the other navigation elements like you can get rid of the explore icon.
You can get rid of the lists icon. You can get rid of the little tweet button that hangs out in the bottom right corner. You can get rid of the search button that hangs out in the top right corner. You can just make Twitter look how you want it to. So I like a feed that is just tweets reverse chronologically with absolutely nothing else. And this browser extension allows me to do that. So I would highly recommend it, especially considering that it gets rid of all the promoted stuff and the trending topics, which is like that's not what Twitter is for. Twitter is not for trending topics. Twitter is for sharing jokes. It's for re-tweeting jokes, it's for sharing information as soon as it happens, and for sharing pictures of Emily Dreyfus' children that maybe show up on your Apple Watch.
AS: You may have just persuaded me to tweet more than once every full moon, Mike. So we'll see. We'll see if that happens.
MC: Excellent. Excellent. All right. Well, thank you all for your recommendations and for your insight about WWDC. This is the end of the show. So thank you, Adrienne for joining us and thank you, Julian for joining us.
AS: Thanks guys.
JC: Thank you.
LG: Thanks. That was super fun.
MC: And thank you all for listening. If you have feedback, you can find all of us on Twitter. Just check the show notes. This show is produced by Boone Ashworth. Goodbye. We will be back next week.
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